QUAVIET

Ladies and Sirs, I have two short questions I am submitting. 1.) If I submit a NGC MS66 coin to PCGS for certification and the coin is graded by PCGS at MS65, does PCGS inform me of the lower grading and let me have my NGC coin back in it holder at MS66, of course I expect to pay a fee. 2.) I have noticed at Heritage auctions that some PCGS coins "past winning bids" equal NGC and some coins sell for 50% to 100% over NGC winning bids. Is this because collectors are bidding up the PCGS prices due to their competition or is this because of a basic flaw of NGC grading. I have posted this site before and received informitive answers. That is where I learned about collectors competitions. It's just that on some coins that the price difference for a coin in equal grade and physical appearance between PCGS and NGC is very great. This leads me to believe that there is a fatal flaw with NGC grading or that NGC is the best buy for quality. Thanks Robert

GDJMSP

You're asking valid questions - but complicated ones. Let me try to explain by saying this first of all - not all coins of the same grade, even those graded by the same company, let alone a different company - are equal. Prices can vary greatly !

A coins grade is established by several factors - I think we all know what they are. But on say coin A, the strike can better than on coin B. And on coin A, the luster is worse than on coin B. They both have similar contact marks but B has a couple more. Now the eye appeal of A is good, but on B it is great ! But the end result is - both coins have the same grade.

Say you have 2 Morgans dollars - both graded as MS65 by PCGS. The coins sell two weeks apart so time or market fluctuation is not an issue. But coin A sold for $525 and coin B sold for $750. Essentially, how can this happen is what you are asking ?

Well the possible explanations are numerous - coin B may, in the buyers opinion have better eye appeal. Or the buyer may think it is undergraded. Or the buyer may be trying to score points in a registry program and willing to pay a premium because of it. Or it may be that the buyer has just been looking for that particular coin for a long time. It could also be that there were several buyers actively trying to outbid each other for that coin on that particular night at that particular auction. There are even more reasons that this could have happened.

It is no different with the same two coins when one is graded by PCGS and one by NGC. You would be hard pressed to find any two coins, identically graded by the same company that sell for the same price. I'd say it would be almost impossible. And if you have those two coins graded by different companies - it will never happen.

I will grant you - some collectors think one company is better than the other. But there are just as many who think NGC is better as there are who think PCGS is better. But contrary to what collectors think - this rarely if ever has any bearing on the sales price. The sales price any coin, graded by anyone, brings is only determined by one thing - the buyer. And since the buyer is an individual - the price he will pay for a given coin is as individual as he is.

Perhaps this buyer thinks luster is more important so he is willing to pay more for B than A. But the buyer for A thinks strike is more important - so he is willing to pay more for A than B. The possible combinations for what a given collector will pay for a given coin are endless. And it seldom has anything to with the slab. It has to do with the coin. The proof of this is when the coin is sold again.

If I wanted to take the time - I could show you examples of a coin being sold 3 different times for vastly different prices. And it wasn't because of changes in market values. It was because of different buyers.

So the fatal flaw you mention - does not lie with the grading company. The flaw is in the logic that collectors use when they try to compare realized prices. And you are certainly not alone - all too many make this mistake.

As to your first question - no they will not inform you if you submit the coin with cross at any grade. But what you can do is submit your coin with the proper instructions. If you submit the coin with cross at same grade only, or higher, they will do so. If they think the coin is a 65 and not a 66 - they will return it to you in the NGC holder.

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Pennycase

I believe that how well known the seller is for providing quality coins has to do a lot with it as well, you have a person who has lets just say for instance 10 feedback on e-bay, and the coin sells for 500, while the person who bought it, is an ebay platinum seller with over 5 thousand feedback scores, and 100% positive, the coin I think would more than likely sell for more than the first seller who had it. Even if the coins are graded, it's simple to know that there are times when a professional grader, may sneeze, the particles go onto the coin, but, isn't noticed, and giving a grade to the coin, which will drop as soon as those spots start to appear on the coin, now you will have on buyer who is known to have these type of coins, offering no refund because it's the opinion of the professionals and not his, while another might say, I believe it would drop a grade if re-submitted, and is known for his honesty.... I guess I made my point..

QUAVIET

Thanks loads for the info. I am bidding on a NGC coin which is listed wholesale $900 at MS65. All of the NGC coins of this grade have been selling at app. $250 while the PCGS's have been selling for around the wholesale rate in the same grade. I checked, and one step lower MS grade for PCGS (MS64) goes for around $250 at auction. It almost appears to me that people are bidding NGC coins like they are one grade lower than certified by PCGS in the same grade. That, in essense is my question. Hense my question about a basic flaw with NGC or peoples perception with them.

Sarawakian

a coin dealer told me recently, most ngc slabbed foreign coin which is MS61 or MS60 if submitted to PCGS would come back AU58. He showed me some coins (slabbed MS60-60), even though I am not a grader, looking at those coins I agree with him.
Conclusion: NGC most likely will over grade coin submission, possibly trying to attrach more customers.

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National dealer

This would not earn them more customers. This would cause them to lose customers. I routinely submit coins to both the major services, and have found NGC to have much more consistant grading. Anyone that is relying on the holder to decide value is only limiting themselves. BUY THE COIN, NOT THE HOLDER.

PS. If you are finding US coins selling for a third of wholesale, please let me know where. Before anyone does this, let me know what WHOLESALE price you are using. The Blue Book does not qualify.

GDJMSP

QUAVIET -

If you will provide the date and mint for the actual coin in question - I can probably provide you with a logical explanation for the differences in realized prices. As I have said before - it rarely has anything to do with the slab.

Sarawakian -

Regardless of what this coin dealer has told you and shown you, for every coin that he or you can find graded by NGC that PCGS would downgrade - I can show you 2 coins graded by PCGS that NGC would downgrade and 1 graded by NGC that PCGS would upgrade. The fact of the matter is this - they ALL make mistakes. And anyone can easily find numerous examples if they actually take the time to look.

One other comment in general. Just because someone is a coin dealer does not mean they actually know what they are talking about.

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QUAVIET

Thank you Sara, The coin in which I was refering to was a US 19th century penny. Would your dealer hold the same for an American coin?

QUAVIET

In re to "National Dealer": I try and buy at or below a price called "Nuismedia NGC (NMN). I do not know what this means but it is always has the lowest price listed for a coin where I bid, and where I got the $900 MS65 price. I then look at past auction winners. The other listed prices are "Nuismedia Retail", "Nuismedia Wholesale", "Coin World Trends", "Coin Universe" and "Nuismedia PCGS (NMP).

National dealer

The ONLY wholesale prices listed are done so in the COIN DEALERS NEWSLETTER, commonly referred to as the greysheet. Numismedia, trends, or any other price guide goes by the highest prices they can find. GDJMSP is correct. Give an example of this $900 coin, and we will give you a correct price.

QUAVIET

Sir, Since you asked me about a coin I would really like you to answer one for me about a coin I bought a few months back. It is a 1925-S 10C FB MS66. I purchased it at Heritage auction. If you access the Heritage web site and put the arrow over auctions a drop down will appear. You also need to sign in. Please click on permenant auction archives and when that page appears please type in the coin type exactly as I typed it above. My question concerns the top three coins which show up. Numbers 5783 ($3,881.25), 5871 ($5,520.00) and 6605 ($12,650). The first two are NGC and the last PCGS. Most of the PCGS coins listed sell well ahead of the NGC's. The coin I bought was item number 5871. My coin did have a high mint luster but also had signs of a die crack according to the write up. Would you look at my coin and tell me if I got ripped off. It won't turn me away from collecting but I need to know. Thank you very much for your evaluation. Robert

Ed Zak

Great thread...

I, too, have always wondered with all of the votes for PCGS or NGC as being the top two graders (as suggested many times throughout these forums) why the discrepancy in prices??

The fact is, or it appears, that PCGS still commands higher prices for the same coin, with the same grade. Sure luster and appearance play a role...but at these figures?? There is a huge market for buying and selling sight-unseen and that is where grading services have played a role in giving confidence to buyers when it comes to purchasing these coins "slabbed" versus a "raw" state. In some cases, bogus grading services like SGS and others have hurt the perception of grading services altogether....but that has been discussed previously as well

Stll, PCGS prices are still substantially higher than NGC and others...or is the bottom primed to fall out??

I have picked up coins graded by ICG and ANACS at almost half of what PCGS was getting for the same coin in the same grade. They looked nice, I agreed with the grade (most of the time), and I saved a bunch. I don't plan on selling them, but if I did, I would consider cross-overing them to PCGS because even after the cross-over costs, I wold probably make out more substantially selling a PCGS slab over the ones I picked them up in.

National dealer

Okay, this question as to why PCGS commands better prices has been asked many times. The quick answer is in the general perception of the coin buying community. PCGS told people they are better, and people who use PCGS told others they were better, and soon, people believed that they were better.
NGC has gone on the offensive as late with "BUYING" endorsements from the ANA and PNG. Smart collectors are now buying the coin and not the holder, and other large sellers such as the TV channels spouting off the NGC tale. So if you research the prices realized, you will see that NGC is gaining ground very quickly, and I predict that NGC will lead the hobby within two years.

Now as far as the 1925-S Mercury Dime MS-66FB
NGC BID $3500.00
PCGS BID $3750.00

National dealer

This is a perfect example as to why in an early thread I suggested that some coins need to be put in a large auction. If you look at auction prices realized, you will see that the collectors are paying way more than bid prices. Now the Heritage index for this coin is $5000.00

If this coin were auctioned again, your odds of it bringing a price of $5000 are pretty good. Dealers routinely send high grade Mercs to auction for this simple reason,

GDJMSP

This exact same coin and the same question was discussed previously in this thread - LINK . But because it does present the opportunity for a good learning experience I will discuss it again more in depth. I urge anyone who wishes to better understand the grading process and the pricing structure to visit the Heritage site and closely examine all of the coins in question.

My efforts here are an attempt to explain not only why 3 coins graded exactly the same brought such varied prices but also why 3 coins so dissimilar were assigned the same grade in the first place. All 3 coins - 1925-S Mercury dimes - were graded MS66 FB. Two were graded by NGC - 1 was graded by PCGS.

Let's start with coin #5871, NGC, which realized $5,520. First of all, this particular coin, date & mint, is known for its weak strike. So coins with even a fairly good strike are assigned higher grades. This coin has booming luster and few distracting contact marks in focal areas. It has excellent eye appeal and the strike is much better than usually found for this date & mint. And it has well defined and fully split full bands. The downside of this coin is the weakly struck center areas of the fasces and around the ear and the die crack. Even so the coin as a whole is deserving of the MS66 FB grade.

Now as to the realized price - this coin was sold at the Heritage NY Signature sale and had 5 bidders, not a large number but average. While the NY auctions are generally well accepted and successful they are not particularly known for bringing record prices. But since Heritage commonly has the same group of bidders watching its auctions this coin realized just above the average price for those same coins that are sold on Heritage.

Coin #6055, PCGS, which realized $12,650. This coin also has booming luster, few distracting contact marks in the focal areas and possibly even better eye appeal than the previous coin. But like the previous coin, this one is weakly struck in the same areas, around the ear and fasces, and has less well defined bands than the previous coin. All in all the two coins are very similar but with strengths and weaknesses in different areas. It too is deserving of the MS66 FB grade.

But this coin was sold at the Long Beach Signature sale. And Long Beach is known for achieving record prices and attracting the largest groups of dealers and collectors. It seems everybody wants to be at Long Beach. This coin had 7 active bidders, more than usual. And the competition undoubtably helped achieve the high price. Again, since it was a Heritage auction, many of the familiar bidders likely participated.

Coin #5783, NGC, which realized $3,881 - the lowest of the group. The coin has great underlying luster which is slightly subdued and darkened by normal silver toning. It has no distracting contact marks in the focal areas but it does suffer from hairlines in a couple spots. Thus the eye appeal is not equal to that of the other two coins. But the strike on this coin is amazing. It is likely the strongest strike that could be found for this date and mint. Every area of the coin is fully struck and the amount of detail is unusual. And it is undoubtably because of this especially strong strike that, coupled with the coin's other attributes, it was assigned a deserving grade of MS66 FB.

This coin was sold at the Pittsburg Signature sale, during the ANA convention. One of the nation's largest shows. Now you might think this to be a good thing, but it is not always so. At a show like this there is too much other material that collectors and dealers alike would be interested in buying. The coin had 5 bidders, again average for a Heritage sale. But because of the lesser eye appeal and hairlines this coin did not bring what it otherwise may have.

Now there is one other very important aspect that has not been considered for these 3 coins that has a large impact on the realized prices. That is the registry program that NGC and PCGS both have. With the NGC registry program, coins slabbed by both NGC & PCGS are elligible for entry. And NGC's program has a differently weighted scoring system for points achieved by a given coin. It is also not as popular as the PCGS program.

PCGS's registry program on the other hand only allows coins slabbed by PCGS to be entered. Thus the competition for the hard to find dates & mints is stiffer - there are simply more collectors competing to acquire the same coin. And they will pay even higher premiums above the recognized value of the coin in order to achive the highest point total possible. Plain and simple - it is a competition to have the best and they will pay to do so. Also, PCGS assigns more points for coins such as this one. This only adds fuel to the fire.

Now by taking all of these things mentioned above into consideration, it should be obvious why the 3 coins were assigned the same grade. It should also be obvious why coin #6055 realized the price it did, even though it was equal in quality to the other two coins.

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