Thread: Presidential dollar Pos A/B designations worth it?

Well no one really cares for the presidential dollar coins (me included), but what does have me thinking is the position A / position B lettering varieties. Anyone familiar with these? I find both in pocket change daily and I also bought a few of the same pres a while bavk because the price was right (i believe they are valued at 12-15 on pcgs website. My general question is "are they worth it seeing as no one cares for them? The only con to it is that I can find in pocket change alot which means someone at the mint doesnt care how their fed into the press or it just does not matter...


Position A designation- When the coin is placed with the Presidents face-up, the edge lettering reads upside down

Position B designation- when the coin is placed with the Presidents face-up, the edge lettering reads normal....

Some opinions please.....

The following is from
http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page33.html


"For business strikes, the edge lettering is being applied in a seperate process
after the obverse and reverse are struck. The struck coins are run through the
edge lettering machine at a high speed without reguard to whether they are
facing obverse up or reverse up. Therefore, coins are being struck with "edge
lettering right-side-up" and "edge lettering upside-down" in relation to the
obverse of the coin (SEE PHOTOS BELOW). "Upside down" lettering IS
NOT AN ERROR. However, it is a nice variation to collect one of
each type if one is inclined to do so.

The edge lettering on proof coins is applied by a
different process than on business strikes. It is applied when the coin is
struck."

PCGS has built a fortune by creating the illusion that the Position A and Position B coins are different in some way. They are not. The only coins which would be considered "errors" because of the position of the lettering would be the proof coins.

Business and Satin strike Presidential (and Native American) dollars have random application of the edge lettering. That process is separate from the striking process, and there is no reason to believe that either "type" should be more or less common than the other. BUT, nonetheless, the "complete" PCGS registry sets require both A&B coins, whereas the NGC sets do not differentiate the position of the edge lettering in either their registry sets or in the slab labeling.

FYI: As is stated above, the proof process for edge lettering is different. The edge lettering and the strike of the obverse and reverse are all done at the same time. Thus, if a proof coin is minted with the edge lettering upside down, then someone didn't do their job in positioning the edge lettering die correctly. On another and similar note, there are some proof presidential dollars with edge lettering out of the correct order. When the presidential dollars were first introduced, the edge lettering die was constructed of three separate pieces. If they were inserted in the incorrect order, then the order of the inscription was incorrect. No one has paid much attention to that error, but it is an interesting little tid-bit. The edge dies are still made of three separate pieces, but they have altered the die pieces so that they only fit together in one way (like puzzle pieces sort of).

Thanks for the replies guys. so the facts stay the same, still worthless .

Originally Posted by brg5658

PCGS has built a fortune by creating the illusion that the Position A and Position B coins are different in some way. They are not. The only coins which would be considered "errors" because of the position of the lettering would be the proof coins.

Business and Satin strike Presidential (and Native American) dollars have random application of the edge lettering. That process is separate from the striking process, and there is no reason to believe that either "type" should be more or less common than the other. BUT, nonetheless, the "complete" PCGS registry sets require both A&B coins, whereas the NGC sets do not differentiate the position of the edge lettering in either their registry sets or in the slab labeling.

FYI: As is stated above, the proof process for edge lettering is different. The edge lettering and the strike of the obverse and reverse are all done at the same time. Thus, if a proof coin is minted with the edge lettering upside down, then someone didn't do their job in positioning the edge lettering die correctly. On another and similar note, there are some proof presidential dollars with edge lettering out of the correct order. When the presidential dollars were first introduced, the edge lettering die was constructed of three separate pieces. If they were inserted in the incorrect order, then the order of the inscription was incorrect. No one has paid much attention to that error, but it is an interesting little tid-bit. The edge dies are still made of three separate pieces, but they have altered the die pieces so that they only fit together in one way (like puzzle pieces sort of).

Absolutely NO "illusions" have been built as much as "problems in the market place" have been addressed!

Shortly after these were relased on Feb 12th, 2007, a few started showing up without the edge lettering and the market went crazy on them! Absolutely cray!

This got folks to actually look at the edge lettering. Remember, its been better than 100 years since edge lettering has been used on US Coins and unless you were involved with this "third side" it would never dawn on you where the Motto, Date, and E Pluribus Unum were located-Think Goldless Dollars!

At any rate, folks began to notice that the lettering faced one way on some and the other way on others. Without batting an eye, unscrupulous eBay sellers began selling these as "errors with upside down lettering" and without batting an eye, lots of less educated folks wasted a lot of money.

PCGS took the forefront in identifying the fact that it doesn't matter what direction the lettering faces, it's a normal occurance just like it was 100 years ago. Missing edge lettering, weak edge lettering and partial edge lettering were all possibilities back then as well.

Variety. A variety is a coin that is different than what it should be and since the edge lettering "can" occur in either direction, there's nothing wrong woith designating "which" direction that lettering goes.

It's my observation that whatever side ois facing up when the coin enters the edge lettering phase of minting has a definite impact on the quality of that lettering. Some coins in a position A have lots of partial or weak edge lettering while the same coin in a Position B, might not.

As for the OP, I would not pay too much attention to the different letter orientations unless of course you are looking for a complete variety set. Some folks DO asppreciate the difference and PCGS simply addresses it.

I know one fellow that wants a COMPLETE Kennedy Variety Set but not according to PCGS's or the CPG's opinions. His set will be of CONECA defined Varieties. Now, if folks want to diss his set then they are certainly welcome but it does not dimish the importance of what HE is collecting. The same should be true of the different Presidential/Sac Edge Lettering orientations.

I look at any I get long enough to see the lettering and if it is there GOING, GOING, SPENT....

To me its not very important, I was just assuming their was a market for them because pcgs is giving them recognition on slabs. I adked because I have about 1500 circulated ones (not that I collect them, just an accumulation from the change machine at work) I did not want to look at all of them for edge lettering difference. Its nice to know I can look for no edge lettering and thats.all!

A vs. B is just all smoke and mirrors. Also, if/when you buy any high grade examples be sure the population numbers the seller quotes include both the A and B positions. There are several sellers on eBay who try to make their coins seem like condition rarities, when in reality the pops are about double of what they report because they are only reporting the "B" position coin (or vice versa).

IMO, PCGS knew the impact it would have on business and slabbing fees when they introduced this differentiation. Don't delude yourself into thinking they were doing anyone a favor.

As noted above, the edge lettering is added to the coin without any respect to obverse or reverse of the coin. They all go through the machinery randomly, and thus I expect the statistical distribution of Pos A and Pos B to be the same.

It's too bad some people tout any of these as error coins.

Thus, if a proof coin is minted with the edge lettering upside down, then someone didn't do their job in positioning the edge lettering die correctly.

Actually the proof edge dies can't be installed upside down. As mentioned on the Jefferson dollar there is a case of the edge dies being out of order but the dies were changed so they can't be installed in the wrong order.

Thus, if a proof coin is minted with the edge lettering upside down, then someone didn't do their job in positioning the edge lettering die correctly.

Actually the proof edge dies can't be installed upside down. As mentioned on the Jefferson dollar there is a case of the edge dies being out of order but the dies were changed so they can't be installed in the wrong order.