Computerized Laser Coin Grading?

Ed Zak · 06-30-2004, 09:09 AM

With the advent of CAD-CAM technology and laser/digital image processing, I wonder why this hasn't taken hold in the coin industry.

I can see it now. Coin graders will use a base of MS69/70 and PR70coins and they are scanned for their mint strike, color, etc. Laser technology can analyse within 20 microns and it is far better than the human eye for objectively analysing surfaces and objects. Average in a number of MS70 struck and PR70DCAM coins (without mint marks and year) for a partiular coin and this will be your "given" database for coin A.

Each part of the coin (with the exception of the mint mark and year) will have ts own 20 square microns storing data for height, depth, markings, etc.

Now comes a coin for grading...it too is scanned and this scan becomes "Y". In other words, the difference between X and Y would determine the grade of the coin. The larger the difference, the lower the grade. The laser (picture Dr. Evil using quotations) can scan worn surfaces against normal surfaces as well as "see" nicks and marks not seen be the human eye. Too picky?...well adjust the settings to that of a human eye using a 7X magnifier. In other words, if the eye can't see it under normal grading conditions, then it should not be important.

What about color, luster and all of that eye appeal stuff? Well, working for a color measurement company...(ever been to Home Depot to match paints with a sample you bring in?)...there is technology already out there that measures color for industries that demand accurate color measurement (auto, paint, print ads in publications, etc.). Using basic algebra, they are able to formulize colors so that x equals x...and the color is perfect.

Color is measured in a controled area with a calibrated light source so that everything is equal. Even rainbow toned coins could be measured as the computer can easily pick up changes in RGB levels (red, green blue).

Also, the data base of the graded coin can have its own fingerprint so that it can be indentified later against the stored data for this particular coin.

I saw a patent for this type of grading in the early 90's, but the project of doing it versus the idea seems to be the issue.

But then again, we will probably be arguing against the machine if we aren't satisfied with the grade our submitted coins received!

National dealer · 06-30-2004, 02:54 PM

This is not a new thought. Computer aided grading or photo aided grading have been attempted and some services are still trying to work the system in. The idea would work for technical grading. Eye appeal makes a huge difference and is something that all mint state and proof coins need. No computer or photo can take the place of seeing the coin. This is exactly why so few coins are bought strictly sight-unseen. Despite who guarantees what, or what the photos look like, a coin must be seen to be truely appreciated.
While I hope that one day, a true technical grade will happen, I just don't see how it will work. At least with what is available today.

ziggy29 · 06-30-2004, 04:59 PM

Even if it were possible to use technology to consistently apply the same *technical* grade to a coin -- and at some point, it could be -- it still wouldn't reflect changing market tastes. At times, maybe toned coins are "in"; other times, maybe blast-white silver pieces are the in thing.

And while two coins may already reach the same grade technically, you still need to see the coin to determine if it has the right eye appeal for you. In that respect, no grading service or magical whizzbang technical grading machine will ever fully be able to replace seeing the coin, examining it under magnification, swirling it around under a light and applying your own tastes and opinions on eye appeal in terms of valuing the coin. It can serve as a useful baseline, perhaps, but that's about it.

National dealer · 06-30-2004, 05:06 PM

Even a standard baseline would be nice :O

braincramp · 07-01-2004, 08:42 PM

Apparently, something like this has been tried, although there is no mention of using lasers:

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10 Myths of the Modern Coin Market

Scott Travers - June 1, 1995

Myth No. 3: Certification services grade coins by computer.
A few years ago, with much fanfare and hoopla, the Professional Coin Grading Service introduced The Expert, a computer which, according to claims in PCGS literature, would be able to grade coins accurately on a systematic basis. Initially, it was programmed exclusively to grade Morgan dollars. But after just a year or so of service, The Expert was "temporarily" retired, and the Irvine, California, certification service now grades coins strictly by means of human experts' eyes, not by computer.
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reference: http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article191.chtml

Ed Zak · 07-01-2004, 10:58 PM

The use of lasers are used today in a variety of industries that deal with custom services and appliances. This technology is in fact REAL. For instance, the dental industry is now using lasers to scan teeth whereby milling machines can exactly duplicate the tooth in a new restored material...in about 15 minutes while you wait. Height, depth, size, etc., are all scanned, assigned data, calculated and now made instantly.

Of course, no two people have the same exact teeth and the same can be said about coins.

Matter of fact, laser digital companies have perfected the use of strands of laser lines (versus the single dot we see in pointing devices) to scan surfaces "repeatedly" whereby changes in surfaces can be detected within 10 to 20 microns. Way smaller than the human eye!

Imagine lasers scanning the surface of a Walking Liberty and givining each "pixel" area a value (x,y,z). Compare the scanned data to that of the "standard" and the computer using calculations for each area will aside a technical grade based on the collected data from 1 to 70!

I have seen this technology work and spoke to the engineers about our little hobby and how much of an uproar takes place between a MS64 grade and MS65 grade...by grading experts with their subjective opinions. They told me that it can happen. The key is what will be considered the "perfect" coin that all others (the variable) will be compared against. That will be a debate all by itself,

I bet you this...it is going to happen. At least at the very minimum, grades will eventually be assigned from a technical standpoint for strike, relief, etc. using this type of technolgy.

PCGS may have tried this...but the key is how to accurately scan coin's surfaces for all of the important items that determine grade. I am sure PCGS knows coins, but laser scanning is something only a few understand.

National dealer · 07-02-2004, 06:47 AM

You are right Ed. The number of people who can accurately grade coins is small. This is not to say that some can't grade some coins, but overall the ability to grade coins is an art lost on most. I have worked with people who use lasers to do all sorts of things. They are amazing in their craft. If this ever translates into a workable area of numismatics will remain to be seen.
Grading is without a doubt, the most argued point of numismatics. The major grading companies serve an important service, with regards to authenticating, and attributing. I believe that they honestly try to do their best on any given day.
In order for any grading system to work properly, we must get away from market grading. The preservation of a coin does not change for the better. It can only remain the same or get worse. Despite what the value of the coin is, or which pedigree it has, the grade should be based on that particular coin.

joecoin · 07-02-2004, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Zak

...Matter of fact, laser digital companies have perfected the use of strands of laser lines (versus the single dot we see in pointing devices) to scan surfaces "repeatedly" whereby changes in surfaces can be detected within 10 to 20 microns. Way smaller than the human eye!

I think you could make some exacting counterfiets with this process.

Imagine lasers scanning the surface of a Walking Liberty and givining each "pixel" area a value (x,y,z). Compare the scanned data to that of the "standard" and the computer using calculations for each area will aside a technical grade based on the collected data from 1 to 70!

I have seen this technology work and spoke to the engineers about our little hobby and how much of an uproar takes place between a MS64 grade and MS65 grade...by grading experts with their subjective opinions. They told me that it can happen. The key is what will be considered the "perfect" coin that all others (the variable) will be compared against. That will be a debate all by itself,

If this is implemented, you will see grades such as MS 64.673246. That's good, then there will no longer be any huge price jumps between whole number grades.

I bet you this...it is going to happen. At least at the very minimum, grades will eventually be assigned from a technical standpoint for strike, relief, etc. using this type of technolgy.

PCGS may have tried this...but the key is how to accurately scan coin's surfaces for all of the important items that determine grade. I am sure PCGS knows coins, but laser scanning is something only a few understand.

But, like all technology, more and more are understanding it everyday, and it will be applied to more esoteric disciplines (coin collecting) in the not too distant future. In fact, if anyone is willing to bankroll me, I'll get started on it tommorow

ziggy29 · 07-02-2004, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joecoin

If this is implemented, you will see grades such as MS 64.673246. That's good, then there will no longer be any huge price jumps between whole number grades.

Buyers and sellers would have to learn how to interpolate!

"Let's see...MS-64.673246...that's a little more than 2/3 of the way from 64 to 65...this Greysheet shows $1,000 in 64 and $3,000 in 65...must be about...think...$2,350 or so..."

**GDJMSP** · 07-02-2004, 07:53 PM

Quote:

I think you could make some exacting counterfiets with this process.

Laser technology has been in use for this purpsoe for quite some now. And yes it is very effective and very difficult to detect.

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