gmarguli

But you ignored and continue to ignore a VERY substantial part of the submission process: The Consistency of the Grading Service.

You are assuming that you take an MS65 and can submit it to NGC or PCGS and get an MS65 grade. That is completely untrue. PCGS is all over the map when giving grades. You submit that MS65 to NGC and it grades MS65. You submit it to PCGS and it comes back MS64, then bodybagged for cleaning, then MS64, then MS65. That inconsistency costs money. You have to factor that into the cost when selling these coins.



Yes, a NUMBER OF FACTORS - not just the selling price. You need to look at the cost of getting it into the correct slab.



Also, moderns and copper coins will sel for more in PCGS slabs. PCGS plays games with the populations of moderns to keep prices high. As for copper, they guarantee the color which NGC did not in the past.

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Greg

Midas

Are you saying that because the standard of pricing deviation is lower in essence is due to grading consistency or lack of consistency?

That was just another prices realized source for people like Speedy who wanted to see pricing for the same coin at the same (< 30 days) specific times. His contention was the market moved. In less than 30 days??? I don't think so unless the governemt found another hoard of coins I don't know about. Remember when he said this:

Prove it! Show me your references and raw data to support your claim. I am basing my claim on REAL prices that were in FACT realized. I trust the free market and dollars more so than opinions.

Again, prove it...show me your data. Anyways, if you look at the prices PCGS gets for their coins LESS any submission costs, you still way be ahead in the advent you have to liquidate your collection. Remember: Selling Price less expenses equals profit. Look at a P&L statement, you'll figure it out.

Again...selling price less cost of the coin and any submission costs equals earnings before taxes and interest paid (EBIT). PCGS charges $18 for an ecnomy submission and what does NGC charge? $16. PCGS charges $30 (US coins) for their next service and NGC charges $21. When your selling price exceeds these costs, it it called a profit.

So PCGS plays games with the POP reports?? Please show me your proof! Or is it locked away in some government buliding where all conspiracies are kept.

Talk about a reach...

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vincent2920

Boys, Boys , Boys. I think you've made your points and it's time to put this one to rest. I appreciate all the opinions, facts , figures etc. At this point I think it's up to each person to decide for him/herself. I think it is pretty clear that in most cases PCGS will get you more money for your coins when sold. Remember that their grading standards ( I believe ) are a little tougher than the rest , so you might not get as high a grade from PCGS vs. the rest , hence the better return for the coin when sold. Thanks again.

P.S ........ and make up. It's only coin collecting !!

Midas

OK...I'll be nice!

Friends! Country Men! Coin Collectors!

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dimedude

So after all this excitement -- if a coin like a 16-D merc is getting circulated, is there any significant difference between
NGC and PCGS?

gmarguli

If you need proof that PCGS is inconsistent in grading, then I assume you’ve never submitted any quantity of coins to them, nor have you had discussions with dealers who submit to them. They are KNOWN for being very inconsistent. Most any dealer can tell you this.

And if you want to trust the free market and dollars, take a look at where the money is spent on submissions. If PCGS is the king, then why does NGC grade more coins than PCGS? And why does ICG & ANACS grade a SIZEABLE amount of coins. If PCGS is so great as you say, can you explain why more than 2 of every 3 coins go to the other services?

So you’re saying that if a PCGS graded coin brings $30 more in the marketplace than an NGC graded one, but I had to submit it 3 times to PCGS to get the correct grade, that I’m still ahead?

I’m quite familiar with P&L statements. I’m also quite familiar with the grading services. God knows I spend enough money grading coins – at least 50K last year. I’m well aware of the costs of resubmissions and the awful consistency of PCGS. If you had any contact with some real dealers in the industry, you’d be fully aware of this.

Correct, that is called profit. Now that page 1 of the Econ 1 textbook has been read it’s time to actually look at the numbers.

You have a raw coin. It cost $1,000. It is a middle of the road MS65.

NGC: Submission costs $30. You coin grades MS65. Total cost to you is $1,030. You sell the coin for $1,200 and make $170. This takes a month.

PCGS: Submission costs $30. The coin grades MS63. You crack it. Resubmission costs $30. The coin bodybags for cleaning. Resubmission costs $30. The coin grades MS65. Total cost to you is $1,120. You sell the coin for $1,275 and make $155. This takes 5 months. Is this really a benefit to the submitter?

If you think the above doesn’t happen every day, you are very, very wrong.


I didn’t say they play games with the population reports, but rather they play games with the populations of coins in certain grades. Given your love for the 70 grade, you should know this.

Question: How many coins have you submitted in total and to PCGS alone? My gut feeling is that you’ve never submitted a coin to any service and you think that PCGS is great based only on selling price of a few coins.

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Greg

Midas

I never had problems with my submissions whereby I had to resubmit over and over again. Sure I had some coins that were body bagged by all of the services (except ANACS), but silly me...I should have caught that "whizzed" coin or "dipped" submisssion before I sent it. Another lesson learned.

I have submitted to all of the services...or tried to.

I like ICG slabs especialy with the Intecept Shield protection (best in the our hobby). For circulated coins and those graded coins below MS67, they are pretty much right on. they get a bad rap with moderns and too many 70 proof grades, but for the rest, they do a great job. James Taylor before he left for Anacs really convinced me to try them out. They have great service and all, can't complain. Unfortunately, the marketplace is not too kind to them.

I submitted cleaned coins and varieties to ANACS. Service was VERY slow...over 3 months after they deposited my check. I haven't submitted coins to their new facility in Texas and tried the new holder. I'll give them a shot again...maybe.

PCGS...I do submit coins to them. BTW...I have about 10 PCGS boxes laying around. Anybody want them at $4 each plus S&H.

NGC...since they are based here in Florida, I drove to Sarasota on business for another matter and figured...what the heck, I'll stop by NGC with some coins. Now, I called them because I wanted 10 of my coins graded. So I figured I would set up an appointment and drop them off. Save on S&H and all. They told me they don't do that. It's not like I parked outside and walked in without an appointment. So I went elsewhere.

So...yes...I have submitted coins to the services. Maybe no where as much as you, a dealer, but enough to get my feet wet.

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Charlie32

I am sure NGC accepts submissions at their office. Maybe they were saying you didn't need an appointment...?

Also check out Rare Coin Wholesalers add in the May 15 issue of Coinworld. Its headline says "The Greatest Rarities are Certified by NGC."

Charlie

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gmarguli

It's not just the BS bodybags they like to hand out, it's the inconsistent grading that forces you to have to resubmit.


While I don't really care for their slabs and think the intercept shield in unnecessary, I do agree that they get a bad rap, but do a decent job. I used to strongly dislike their grading, but over the past couple years they have tightened up to be more in line with the other services. Too bad the MS/PF70 stuff killed their reputation and they may never be able to build it back up. I recently got back about 150 coins from them and for much of the stuff their grading was on par with PCGS/NGC. They're a little quicker to hand out ultra high grades and they'll look the other way on problems using net grades a little more than the other services, but overall they do a decent job. For circulated stuff, they have been dead on recently. I've been able to sell generic stuff in their slabs for decent money.



Hold off on anything going to ANACS. They have a lot of work to do to get things in order before stuff should be submitted. They are way behind and a little disorganized right now.


Put them on eBay in lots of 3. Start them at 1c and charge $8.10 for shipping (flat rate box). They'll bring around $8 each / $24 per auction. I sold a ton like this a while back.


Yep, NGC no longers allows non-dealers to drop coins off in person. It was for security. Seems fair as they checkout the dealers, but anyone with $99 can join their club.

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Greg

The_Cave_Troll

yes, that is the conclusion that I drew from the data. The obvious assumtion that I made was that higher quality coins for each grade received stronger bids and lesser quality coins for each grade sold for less, but if that isn't the case then that would prove the point that PCGS buyers will pay anything to get the coins that they desire, which would make this whole discussion pointless. My assumption is partially faulty, but it will have to do for our purposes.

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GDJMSP

I will make one final comment on this and I'm done - I've beat this dead horse long enough. It is my firm belief that PCGS slabbed coins sell for more for one reason - people are buying the plastic, not the coin.

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airedale

Did they ever do a recall on the tamper-able holders out there or just forget about them. That would seem like a good reason to avoid ANACS if they did nothing.

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Charlie32

From what I've heard, the slabs are still easily openable without evidence of tampering. I won't be sending coins to ANACS any time soon.

Charlie

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Richard01

I have only submitted about 40 coins to ANAC's. I was happy with most grading, I think they misgraded a few (and I sent them to NGC and recieved grades that made more sense).
However, that happens.
My gripe was that I sent many of my coins 5 day express, and did not get them back for 45 business days! I called and sent emails and they admitted they lost them, then found them in the vault. Mostly move related. Fine... but they should have refunded the express part of my payment, or offered me something to apologize. They were very nice... but I was not offered any recompense... and I think I'll stick with NGC now.
I for one love the new ANAC's holder, however. The coin is really easy to see and image. I wish NGC had a more clear holder...

airedale

Your new job at PCGS must be treating you well. I have not seen any posts from you lately.

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