09S-V.D.B

Noooo!!! I'm still on dial-up.

I'm pretty sure this thread doesn't apply to anything except moderns, unless you can show me a 70 ihc or v-nickel.

Leadfoot

Your statistical analysis is interesting, but it really doesn't tell us anything about consistency of grading nor grading standards. All you've shown is the frequency of PF 70 coins, and there is a difference. My own impressions of seeing many PF 70 coins in both NGC and PCGS coins is that the PF 70 versus PF 69 grade is a crapshoot, with both companies "giving" them away without significant differences between the coins in 70 and 69...Mike

Midas

5, 10, 15, 20 times MORE for NGC70 grades over PCGS70 grades???...all things being equal??...for the "same" coin/year/mm??

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GDJMSP

We've had this discussion so many times it's almost pointless to do so again. But just for the sake of argument, let's agree that NGC hands out the 70 grade more often than PCGS does. What would be the conclusion ? The only conclusion there could be would be that NGC hands out the 70 grade more often than PCGS. And that's all you could conclude. It doesn't mean that PCGS is more strict with grading as a whole than NGC - we are only talking about 1 grade and 1 grade only. What about all the other grades ? What about all the other non-modern coins ? When was the last time you saw either company assign a 70 grade, PF or MS, to a coin that was not a modern ? I'll give ya a hint - never.

Next you might want to ask why PCGS hands out so few 70 grades. You don't suppose it might be because they want to hold up the market value of those coins already graded 70 now do ya ? Nor could it have anything to do with one of the principals of PCGS being a seller of those coins graded 70 - nahhh that would be out of the question. It's all because PCGS is a tougher grading company

Yeah - and I got a bridge I wanna sell too.

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Midas

Let's look at the POP reports of some relatively common date Lincolns in 67 grades. At these grades is when you see these values jump! For instance. I used these dates, because the likelihood of these common date coins being submitted, cracked out, and resubmiited again are very slim:

1938-S Lincoln 1c - Red

NGC:

MS64: 22
MS65: 130
MS66: 591
MS67: 637
MS68: 2

PCGS:

MS64: 62
MS65: 417
MS66: 1582
MS67: 210
MS68: 0

1950 Lincoln 1c:

NGC:

MS64: 13
MS65: 65
MS66: 352
MS67: 67

PCGS:

MS64: 62
MS65: 142
MS66: 361
MS67: 17

1955-S Lincoln 1c

NGC:

MS65: 285
MS66: 2696
MS67: 406
MS68: 0

PCGS:

MS65: 404
MS66: 1735
MS67: 188
MS68: 1

You can call these POP reports "junK", but when you take into account actual prices realized from the likes of Heritage/Teletrade/eBay as well as what dealers say straight out at shows/shops, plus a 20 year run, it is pretty hard to ignore the facts and the reasons why PCGS slabbed coins carry a stiff premium over NGC who carries more vlaue than ANACS who carrys more value than ICG. The rest of them aren't even worth mentioning.

Conclusion...when submitting, submitt your coins to the service that will realize the highest prices in the event you have to sell your collection/coin. When buying, if you can see the coin, it is equal opportunity across the board. Sight-Unseen??..."Trust me"

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GDJMSP

No argument about which one sells for the most, never has been. And for that reason I can understand why some folks would prefer to submit some coins to them.

But what about when you're buying a coin that is already slabbed ? Does it make sense to pay more for a coin in a PCGS slab when the very same coin in the NGC or ANACS slab, which is every bit of equal quality to the coin in the PCGS slab, cost less ? I know you know better than this Midas, but that sounds an awful lot like buying the slab instead of buying the coin.

And what happens if those folks go ahead and buy the coin in the PCGS slab that cost more, and in a few years from now the price variance between coins slabbed by PCGS and NGC/ANACS disappears ? The variance has been dropping steadily for some years now and show no signs of slowing down. How much money will they lose then ?

I know you're a fan of PCGS, I have no problem with that. But to blindly make posts to try and convince others that they shoud be fans of PCGS as well - without telling the other side of the story - that I have a problem with, it just rubs me the wrong way. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, far from it. You're just voicing your opinion and you're more than welcome to do so. As long as you don't mind me voicing mine too

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gmarguli

Wow, I never realized it until now. PCGS vastly overgrades Lincolns in MS64, MS65, & MS66.

David Hall once made a stupid comment (well, one of tens of thousands technically). He basically said that NGC coins are not allowed in the PCGS registry because they overgrade them and look at X coin in X grade. The pops showed many more in those grades at NGC than PCGS. This was his proof. My reply to him was to ask if he should exclude PCGS coins from the PCGS registry where the pops were opposite of above. He never answered. Perhaps his head exploded when he realized his logic was BS?


I take it you haven't been in coins that long. If you had been, you'd have known that the premium price paid "20 year run" doesn't exist. Premiums paid for a certain grading company have gone back and forth over the years. Care to explain that?

Also, you may want to look at more classic coins. Moderns have always been in PCGS's favor since they've been grading them longer. As for what dealers say, well, when a customer isn't there the term used is "PCGS weenies". That's the term dealers use to call PCGS-only buyers. They laugh at them because the average one would buy an overgraded dog in a PCGS MS65 before they'd buy an undergraded gem in an NGC MS65. Trust me - they laugh at them.



FYI, I think what you said above is true. Now, where is your flaw in the above?

If the grading is that much looser at NGC, then why would someone want to submit them to PCGS to get worse grades? If what you are basically saying is true, wouldn't it be best to send the coins to NGC to get the higher grades? After all, isn't an NGC MS67 worth more than a PCGS MS66?


Don't look at how tight a service can be, look at how CONSISTENT they are. That's all that matters.

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Greg

EdsCoin

My Question is even if PCGS and NGC grading standards were the same can anyone look at a PF 70 Modern
coin and see several hundred dollars difference than in a PF 69 coin?

GDJMSP

It all depends on who's doing the looking - a registry collector or an ordinary collector.

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Speedy

ha ha ha....you don't think it might just be that one coin has more bag marks or such than the other one?....that doesn' t make "cents"

This whole topic is really crazy.....Greg made a great point....if you want a company that doesn't give out many 70's why not pick ANAC????

Speedy

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Midas

or 66's or 67's...

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Speedy

If you want a company that doesn't give out many 66's or 67's go with SGS!!!!!!

Really Midas....

Speedy

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Midas

This is from Coin World...interesting reading about POP reports with NGC and PCGS:

1/15/2007

"Variations in grading service standards may also be revealing themselves. For example, PCGS has graded a mere two Jefferson 5-cent coins as MS-70 since and including the 2004 design changes while NGC has graded in excess of 9,501 MS-70 coins of the same dates as of its October 2006 report.

This compares to 11,855 2004 to date 5-cent coins graded Mint State by PCGS and 53,246 graded Mint State by NGC. NGC has graded about 4.5 times as many 2004-to-date Jefferson 5-cent coins as PCGS, and nearly 18 percent of these NGC-graded 5-cent coins grade MS-70. If the same percentage were applied to these same PCGS-graded issues, PCGS would have graded about 2,115 as MS-70."

Let me see if I can understand this...

Total 2004 5 cent coins submitted to PCGS: 11,855

Number of MS70 grades awarded: 2
% of this given coin's submissions receiving MS70 grades: .017%

******************************************

Total 2004 5 cent coins submitted to NGC: 53,246

Number of MS70 grades awarded: 9,501
% of this coin's submissions receiving MS70 grades: 17.84%

Interesting...don't you think?

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GDJMSP

Yeah, it is. It tells me two things, one it tells me that a lot more of these coins are being submitted to NGC than are being submitted to PCGS - almost 5 times as many. And two, it tells me that if NGC thinks a coin is worthy of the 70 grade - then they give it one. For apparently NGC, unlike PCGS, has no ulterior motive for not assigning the 70 grade.

Now I realize that you think there is another reason entirely, you think the reason is because PCGS is much tougher on grading standards than NGC is. If I am mistaken you may correct me of course.

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Midas

Well...as they say on "The Factor", we will let the audience (market) decide.

What better indicator than with actual realized prices from the likes of eBay, Heritage,Teletrade and others?

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