airedale

Thanks for sharing this. What a outstanding & candid video! http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article...universeid=313
If anyone has slightly over an hour and one half to spend this is certainly enlightening, educational, entertainment. I use entertainment with a good connotation as not only is this, IMHO, unbiased shared knowledge but presented in a great way. I think this would be excellent material to be made STICKY and available to the new and the seasoned interested parties who visit this forum. The cast of characters just cannot be denied and to see them as a group with some tough questions is a joy.

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John
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind

Leadfoot

Your statistical analysis is interesting, but it really doesn't tell us anything about consistency of grading nor grading standards. All you've shown is the frequency of PF 70 coins, and there is a difference. My own impressions of seeing many PF 70 coins in both NGC and PCGS coins is that the PF 70 versus PF 69 grade is a crapshoot, with both companies "giving" them away without significant differences between the coins in 70 and 69...Mike

Midas

5, 10, 15, 20 times MORE for NGC70 grades over PCGS70 grades???...all things being equal??...for the "same" coin/year/mm??

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EdsCoin

My Question is even if PCGS and NGC grading standards were the same can anyone look at a PF 70 Modern
coin and see several hundred dollars difference than in a PF 69 coin?

GDJMSP

We've had this discussion so many times it's almost pointless to do so again. But just for the sake of argument, let's agree that NGC hands out the 70 grade more often than PCGS does. What would be the conclusion ? The only conclusion there could be would be that NGC hands out the 70 grade more often than PCGS. And that's all you could conclude. It doesn't mean that PCGS is more strict with grading as a whole than NGC - we are only talking about 1 grade and 1 grade only. What about all the other grades ? What about all the other non-modern coins ? When was the last time you saw either company assign a 70 grade, PF or MS, to a coin that was not a modern ? I'll give ya a hint - never.

Next you might want to ask why PCGS hands out so few 70 grades. You don't suppose it might be because they want to hold up the market value of those coins already graded 70 now do ya ? Nor could it have anything to do with one of the principals of PCGS being a seller of those coins graded 70 - nahhh that would be out of the question. It's all because PCGS is a tougher grading company

Yeah - and I got a bridge I wanna sell too.

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GDJMSP

It all depends on who's doing the looking - a registry collector or an ordinary collector.

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Midas

Let's look at the POP reports of some relatively common date Lincolns in 67 grades. At these grades is when you see these values jump! For instance. I used these dates, because the likelihood of these common date coins being submitted, cracked out, and resubmiited again are very slim:

1938-S Lincoln 1c - Red

NGC:

MS64: 22
MS65: 130
MS66: 591
MS67: 637
MS68: 2

PCGS:

MS64: 62
MS65: 417
MS66: 1582
MS67: 210
MS68: 0

1950 Lincoln 1c:

NGC:

MS64: 13
MS65: 65
MS66: 352
MS67: 67

PCGS:

MS64: 62
MS65: 142
MS66: 361
MS67: 17

1955-S Lincoln 1c

NGC:

MS65: 285
MS66: 2696
MS67: 406
MS68: 0

PCGS:

MS65: 404
MS66: 1735
MS67: 188
MS68: 1

You can call these POP reports "junK", but when you take into account actual prices realized from the likes of Heritage/Teletrade/eBay as well as what dealers say straight out at shows/shops, plus a 20 year run, it is pretty hard to ignore the facts and the reasons why PCGS slabbed coins carry a stiff premium over NGC who carries more vlaue than ANACS who carrys more value than ICG. The rest of them aren't even worth mentioning.

Conclusion...when submitting, submitt your coins to the service that will realize the highest prices in the event you have to sell your collection/coin. When buying, if you can see the coin, it is equal opportunity across the board. Sight-Unseen??..."Trust me"

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GDJMSP

No argument about which one sells for the most, never has been. And for that reason I can understand why some folks would prefer to submit some coins to them.

But what about when you're buying a coin that is already slabbed ? Does it make sense to pay more for a coin in a PCGS slab when the very same coin in the NGC or ANACS slab, which is every bit of equal quality to the coin in the PCGS slab, cost less ? I know you know better than this Midas, but that sounds an awful lot like buying the slab instead of buying the coin.

And what happens if those folks go ahead and buy the coin in the PCGS slab that cost more, and in a few years from now the price variance between coins slabbed by PCGS and NGC/ANACS disappears ? The variance has been dropping steadily for some years now and show no signs of slowing down. How much money will they lose then ?

I know you're a fan of PCGS, I have no problem with that. But to blindly make posts to try and convince others that they shoud be fans of PCGS as well - without telling the other side of the story - that I have a problem with, it just rubs me the wrong way. I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong, far from it. You're just voicing your opinion and you're more than welcome to do so. As long as you don't mind me voicing mine too

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airedale

A good reply IMHO and Midas I appreciate the research that we see here.
What got this thread started again, I think, was me thanking you for this video.
http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article...universeid=313

I think if anyone spends 20 minutes with this video they will follow it to the end. Thanks Again For Making It Available Midas!

One of the things that caught my ear in this video was a 40+ years in business well known coin dealer who said that he thought one of the major grading services graded intentionally low to get people to play the crack out or resubmit game. Every time you do that it is again revenue for the service. Maybe I heard him wrong.

One thing I believe is that grading services are here to stay. David Hall mentioned in this video that PCGS's sport card affiliate grades 100,000 sports cards a month. Big Business!
http://www.pcgs.com/articles/article...universeid=313

The video does seem to get busy and not available at times.

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John
Chance Favors The Prepared Mind

gmarguli

Wow, I never realized it until now. PCGS vastly overgrades Lincolns in MS64, MS65, & MS66.

David Hall once made a stupid comment (well, one of tens of thousands technically). He basically said that NGC coins are not allowed in the PCGS registry because they overgrade them and look at X coin in X grade. The pops showed many more in those grades at NGC than PCGS. This was his proof. My reply to him was to ask if he should exclude PCGS coins from the PCGS registry where the pops were opposite of above. He never answered. Perhaps his head exploded when he realized his logic was BS?


I take it you haven't been in coins that long. If you had been, you'd have known that the premium price paid "20 year run" doesn't exist. Premiums paid for a certain grading company have gone back and forth over the years. Care to explain that?

Also, you may want to look at more classic coins. Moderns have always been in PCGS's favor since they've been grading them longer. As for what dealers say, well, when a customer isn't there the term used is "PCGS weenies". That's the term dealers use to call PCGS-only buyers. They laugh at them because the average one would buy an overgraded dog in a PCGS MS65 before they'd buy an undergraded gem in an NGC MS65. Trust me - they laugh at them.



FYI, I think what you said above is true. Now, where is your flaw in the above?

If the grading is that much looser at NGC, then why would someone want to submit them to PCGS to get worse grades? If what you are basically saying is true, wouldn't it be best to send the coins to NGC to get the higher grades? After all, isn't an NGC MS67 worth more than a PCGS MS66?


Don't look at how tight a service can be, look at how CONSISTENT they are. That's all that matters.

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Greg

Leadfoot

Actually, the only things that matter to me is the coin and the price. The slab is nothing but an opinion and protection...Mike

Midas

I have bought and currently own slabbed coins from all of the top TPG's (PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG) both sight-unseen (i.e., eBay, Teletrade, Heritiage) as well as those lower tiered slabs (PCI, SEGS) "seen-in-hand" at various coin shows. Actually, some of them (PCI, SEGS) have made great "crack-out" candidates. So...when I am buying, I am equal opportunity all of the way. Lately over the last couple of years, I have been saving my dollars budgeted for the major shows like F.U.N. and others. I have been concentrating on quality purchases over quantity purchases. With that in mind, I have taken advantage of SEEING the coin before I made the purchase. Even if the coin is raw, I had the luxury of taking that raw coin over to the TPG's tables where they have given me on-site grading opinions. I can't tell you the number of times I have taken a raw coin over to the likes of ANACS or ICG where they have made comments like, "nice whiz job...here let me show you" or "old dip that is retoning" or on the good side..."a strong 63". You should have seen some of the dealer's expressions when I came back (to return the coin) and told them what these guys said!

Bottom line...it saved my butt and I would encourage all to take raw coins over to the TPG's at these shows (the big ones) so that you have a second opinion on your purchase/investment.

Only if I am buying "sight-unseen", which I have significantly curtailed over the last couple of years. A coin slabbed by the likes of the top TPG's as a 1914-D EF40 1c carries a lot more weight that an eBay seller who sells it "raw" as an AU55BN. Actually, I would encourage all here to NEVER buy a key date coin RAW unless your grading and authentication skills are up to snuff. From the 4/24/06 Coin World article on Slabs: ..."It (slabs) has changed the business for the better. People are protected somewhat from the vultures. Today, if a better date coin is out there raw, it's a trap. There is something wrong with that coin."

I closely watch the actual prices realized from all of the major online services and with an exception here of there, there is no question that PCGS realizes much higher prices than NGC which realize more than ANACS which realize more than ICG. This is NOT a spike in market indicators, but as I stated...if I submit, I will submit to the service that realizes the highest prices and is recognized by the numismatic community for their product and service. I started this thread because I wanted to determine why PCGS coins sell for more than NGC coins. Through my research, I found that coins graded by NGC in the high MS/PR grades appeared with higher frequency and percentages than PCGS coins (per POP reports). I felt this in ONE of the reasons that contributed to higher prices relaized by PCGS coins over NGC. When NGC awards 5, 10, 15, 20 times MORE 70 grades per total submissions than PCGS, the market has spoken. It is not my fault, it is the numismatic community who has deemed it as so. Is there an end in sight? I really haven't seen any indications that prices realized for PCGS coins over NGC coins have leveled off. Teletrade, eBay completed auctions and Heritage's prices realized links are a valuable tool for all. I would encourage all to use these market indicators to get a feel for what your coin is worth or how much you may expect to pay.

Here, here...always open to good honest spirited discussions.

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claw

You guys also have to remember that big dealers send in thousands of coins only to be slabbed if they make a certain grade. Take for instance "The Coin Vault".That tv show that sells overpriced items.They send in thousands of coins.If that coin does not make 69 or better, they send it back and are not charged for that submission.Where do you think they send most of their coins to?? Yep NGC. Those coins that are not slabbed, are not included in the total numbers.That is why your numbers dont add up.Numbers is just that.

If im looking to buy a coin sight unseen, and can purchase lets say a NGC-64 ,or a PCGS-63, for the same amount of money.What coin do you think I will purchase. The NGC.

NGC is catching up with PCGS.Its the buyers that have to catch up and realize that PCGS does not stand alone, and that both TPG's are about equal.

I would prefer to sell a coin with PCGS label over an NGC,only because it brings more money.There could be a time and place when NGC is recoginized as the industry leader.

My prefferance to the companies is an equal 50%-50%.Only for the fact that I can make more money selling a PCGS label.As a collector , It would not bother me to buy a a NGC label over PCGS.

Something I have noticed over the last few weeks on EBAy. I have noticed Ebayers selling both labels.
One instance:a PCGS-63 "Saint", and a NGC-64 same date both selling for about the same price with "buy it now" option. The NGC was of the market as fast as it was listed.The PCGS is still up for auction.Explain that one.Investors and collectors alike are more aware of this trend between the two TPG's.Would'nt you buy a NGC-64 over the PCGS-63,especially if their close in price. Doesnt that tell a story to!
It wont be long before NGC is number one.Then what are you going to do with all your PCGS stuff?
In my honest opinion, if there is one company to take a fall ,it will be PCGS.Strictly because they are inconsistent, and they market there own coins through other smaller companies.

Thanks CLAW

Midas

One is a 64 grade and the other is a 63 grade. I would have to believe a 64 grade is in higher demand than a 63 coin for the same coin/year/mm/etc.

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gmarguli

No, actually the grading services have spoken.

I'm not sure why you look at only the grade of 70 as if it is a meaningful indication of their grading. Also, if you want to continue to look at 70's, you should be aware of the internal policies of the grading services regarding 70's. Are you? Because in order to comment on their grading, it'd be useful if you had info on why there are more 70s at NGC than PCGS.

BTW, for every 70 ANACS grades, PCGS probably graded 100. By your reasoning ANACS should be the king of the marketplace. However, you stated that they sell for less than PCGS & NGC. How can this be?

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Greg