gc1111

After I read the recent Coin World article about the number of new slabbing organizations, I went to EBay and made a very unscientific survey of slabbed coins they had for sale. I was interested in pointing out the obviously different grading standards. SGS stands out like a sore thumb in the number of 70 grades. But I think this is not a surprise, most of the readers here are very aware of these differences in grading standards. So when we start arguing about differences between well regarded companies -- I am reminded of the famous GBS line:
"We have already established what you are Madam, now we are just negotiating the price." As long as there aren't industry wide standards, there will be this kind of drift of grades between different graders. The individual companies rely on multiple opinions because individuals differ. Why should that be limited to only those graders on their staff? I think the problem lies in people forgetting the inherent imprecision of grades. If we acknowledged that MS67 means somewhere between MS65 and MS69, then the market will become more sane.

I apologize for not including the numbers, but I am still trying to figure out how to transfer a spreadsheet to this forum.

Speedy

09S-VDB.....that really won't help as PCGS and NGC grade by their own standers and they aren't alike.
What it would show is that if you sent the same coin to PCGS maybe 10 times you might get 2-3+ grades...but more than likely NGC would give it the same grade everytime.

Midas

I would agree that they might be...in fact I'm pretty sure...

About the 70 grade....I have told you before that I would research it and I did....I talked to many collectors and dealers....searched read and read....and there are some points in that way.....but that is about the only point that points that way.
As for Franklins....it only goes to prove my point that people are buying the HOLDER and not the coin....true collectors of Franklins KNOW that fact and buy NGC when buying FBL coins.

You can see that in the Heritage auction list you quoted.....some of the NGC coins went for the same price or higher than PCGS in some cases....that was more than likely a TRUE Franklin Collector.

Sorry---since I'm a collector of Halves that is why I do it...kindof like you always useing the Cent
It is a fact....check it out....that NGC is harder than PCGS on Franklin halves.

You mean that people in FL don't buy coins....they buy HOLDERS??.....up here in KY when a show is in town the coins are priced by the coin....if that is SEGS or NGC or AANCS or PCI or PCGS....they are priced and bought for the coin....the slab is just that....a slab to hold the coin.

Speedy

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Midas

Where? Maybe a NGC graded Franklin in 2006 sold for more dollars than the same grade from PCGS in 2003! Do you know how to compare 'real' dollars adjusted after a given time period. That is what we call, inflation.

After reading some of your comments, it occured to me that you may not understand statistical analysis or what is the differance between mean, mode and delta values. I thought I outlined the values in a way so people with 5th grade education could easily understand. I also did not take into consideration that what used to be 5th grade requirements is now 10th grade levels in some states...so I apologize if these numbers are too difficult for you to grasp.

I also previously stated that you may have an exception (not the rule) here or there and surely a coin's value is worth more in 2006 than it was in 2004...all things being equal. Here's my favoarite line: "That was most likely a true Franklin collector." Funny...I didn't remember reading the auction listings where NGC slabbed Franklins were only sold to "true" Franklin collectors. When I read a statement like that? I have to ask, what Kool-Aid are you drinking??

I never been to a coin show in KY, but I have to believe that The Palm Beach Show and the F.U.N. Show in Florida have just a tad more dealers/collectors/quantity/quality of coins over what you may see in the blue grass state.

The Florida United Numismatists is host of the nation's largest coin show, held annually at the beginning of January. Over 15,000 collectors and 400+ dealers from around the U.S. and the world converge in Florida for the first show of every year.

You are absolutely right...all of these people buy holders down at the these shows. The auction houses like Heritage that sell MILLIONs of dollars in rare coins in Florida all have stupid buyers as well.

I guess we need to upgrade our numismatic education level to the great state of KY.

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dgoose50

I buy a lot of morgans in mint states ranging from 63 to66 and I agree yhat PCGS coins tend to bring more money on sale, but I dont think there is any PERFECT grading sevice for now or for the future.I often disagree with both of these services but the bottom line is what you think of the coin.If it looks good to me it probably will look good to another collector. usePCGS and NGC only as a guide,but not gospel.One dealer said to me at the Saint Louis coin show in FEB 06 tthat hte only ones getting rich in this business are the four major sevices. How do we know that one of these top sevices wont be discredited for ethic violations or fraud at some point? Would you bet a lot of money that this couldn't happen?

Midas

I can't see what benefit the likes of PCGS, NGC, ANACS or ICG would see by participating in fraud or ethic violations. These four TPGs have proved themselves to the coin community. The future of their TPG business rests in grading and slabbing moderns and the last thing any of these services would want ANY bad press. Any short term benefit would not be worth losing millions in further submissions.

I can't see how one service would intentionally grade a coin a 66 instead of a 65 for the benefit of a few thousand dollars when they could lose everything they worked for.

Could it happen? Like everything, sure it can. However you are more likely to see that on eBay's "alphabet of slabs" (i.e., SGS, NNC, etc.) than with the likes of the top four.

Let me put in this way...it is already happening with sellers like Aboncom and their back room where loose change is "packaged" in SGS holders and sold as PR70 or MS70.

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Speedy

I would agree but Franklins haven't gone up like that---Franklins have stayed the same for sometime....and if you look at some coins you will see the price for 2003-2006 dropping....not going up...so I don't htink its inflation...I thought about that.

Yes I do understand them....in fact I have been going back over them some to make sure I do....

My statement is still true....it was more than likely a person who wasn't buying the holder but the coin and knew that NGC was better....a true Franklin Half collector would know that.

True---we have about 50 so odd dealers at the show I go to...but bigger isn't always better.

They sell coins to millions of Investers and dealers that are looking at the slab.....they aren't stupid but they just haven't learned.....

It would help that hobby that is for sure....in my many trips I have gone to coin shops when I can....or at least read their adds around there....for the most part dealers in KY are selling the coin where as others tend to be more hyping up teh slab.....I'm sure that we have people like that here in KY too.....but it sure it great to grow up in a place where holders are sold just as they are....a holder.

Speedy

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Farstaff

Question, please.
Could not this data be slightly off because more folks submit to NGC than PCGS?
I know personally, I prefer ANACS and NGC for Franklins and have only submitted to them.

btw: remarks about my education level and where I am presently located would not be called for to answer the above question.
Thank you

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ajia

So let me see if I can summorize & do some conclusions....

PCGS: Stricker in handing out MS/PR70 grades, and are higher valued coins.
Collectors of the PCGS registry & dealers who hope for MS/PR70 & deal to PCGS members submit coins there.

NGC: Less strick on giving MS/PF70 grades. More collectors send in coins because of the chances of getting this grade & lower submission costs. Lower valued coins.

BUT

If I had a coin that would grade 69 at PCGS, and I send it to NGC and get a 70, is my coin now valued more in a NGC holder in 70 than a PCGS holder in 69?

Midas

Look at the total amount of submissions for a given coin. Then take the amount of 70 grades divided by the this total to come up with a decimal number. Multiply this by 100, add the % sign and that is how you can look at these numbers, service to service!

For instance, and even though it has been noted I collect primarily Lincolns, lets look at a couple first year issues: 1986 MS American Silver Eagle and the 2000-S SAC Proof dollar: Both of these coins sold out quickly as you would expect with a first year issue. As time elapsed, I can confidently say that the majority of these coins that WERE going to be submittd, have in fact been submitted to the TPG's.

Again, it is also my contention that the number of submitters who would actually break out one of these submissions from another grading service in hope of a obtaining a higher grade or cross-over would have been very small. So I believe these numbers are accurate.

So let's go back to real numbers and not opinions:

1986 MS American Silver Eagle:

PCGS reported that they graded 3,710 submissions. Out of these submissions, 3 received a MS70 grade. 3 divided by 3710 equals .0008086. Multiply that by 100, add the % notation and you get: .0808% of all submissions received the 70 grade.

For MS69 grades, PCGS awarded 2,728 grades or 73.53% of all submissions.

NGC reported that they graded 38,476 submissions! Out of these submissions, 447 received a MS70 grade. 447 divided by 38,476 equals .011617. Multiply that by 100, add the % notation and you get: 1.1661% of all submissions received the 70 grade.

For MS69 grades, NGC awarded 37,828 grades or 98.32 of all submissions.

Just for this coin alone, NGC awarded grades of MS69 or higher at a rate of 99.48%. PCGS only awarded MS69 or higher grades to the rate of 73.61%

Compared to PCGS, NGC handed out over 14 times MORE 70 grades. Yes, as per your post they graded more and I am sure some people would say (without any fact or support basis) that NGC is probably getting better coins and submissions over PCGS, but you draw your own conclusions.

What about those 2000-S SAC Proof $1's?:

Here the number of submissions is pretty even.

Out of these 2000-S SAC Proof submissions, PCGS awarded 31 PR70DCAM grades out of 6,027 submissions. That equals .514%.

They also awarded 5,129 PR69DCAM grades which equals to: 85.10%

Out of these 2000-S SAC Proof submissions, NGC awarded 344 PR70UCAM grades out of 6,087 submissions. That equals 5.65%.

They also awarded 5,523 PR69UCAM grades which equals to: 90.73%

Conclusion: NGC awarded almost 11 times more 70 grades than PCGS. Also, they awarded more 69UCAM grades as a percentage compared to PCGS.

More likely than none, yes.

A NGC PR70UCAM is worth more than a PCGS 69DCAM, but no where as much as a PCGS PR70DCAM. When you analyse the total about of submissions and the percentage of those coins that were awarded a 70 and 69 grades for NGC compared to PCGS, the numbers have proved that NGC awards these submissions 3, 5, 10, sometimes 15 times MORE than 70 grades compared to the percentage of 70 grades awarded by PCGS.

Also NGC awards more 69 grades as well. The numismatic community (at least at the Florida FUN show) along with the majority of marketplace recognizes this, and hence the reason why NGC 70 coins do NOT carry the market premiums as do PCGS 70 grades. It is also another reason why PCGS 69 grades carry more weight than NGC as well.

As I stated earlier, just because a coin was awarded a given grade of say, 69DCAM, it still would be very unlikely that a submitter would break it and resubmit it to either the NGC or PCGS. You have to take the cost of acquiring the coin along with submission costs and their S&H to justify if such an action is worth it.

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GDJMSP

Oh no need to worry about that, it's already happened. PCGS was sued in Federal Court some years ago over their grading practices. They fought the case for a while, they lost - one of the few that ever have.

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GDJMSP

Statistics, epsecially statistics such as those contained in the pop reports, can be interpretted to mean almost anything. For example, the numbers of coins assigned the grades of 69 & 70 by NGC could be said to mean that those people submitting the coins to NGC are better graders than those people who are submitting the coins to PCGS. But do the numbers prove it ? No of course not. Neither do they prove that NGC has looser grading standards than PCGS. And that's the whole point - it doesn't prove anything.

This discussion could go on ad infinitum - we've had it what, 50 times on this forum alone ? And nothing will ever be resolved. It's like two 8 year olds saying - my dog's better than your dog. Who cares ?

Submit your coins to whatever company you choose, buy your coins in the slab of your choice. And - believe what you want to believe.

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CoinSwede

To prove your point that NGC has looser grading standards, please buy all the 1986 NGC MS70 SAEs and send them to PCGS for grading to see how many of them end up as PCGS MS70.
Without those numbers, you have no support or fact basis.

Until you let NGC and PCGS grade the SAME COINS, you can't say if one grading service is looser or not.

Comparing grading statistics for NGC and PCGS and drawing any conclusions is impossible unless you give both NGC and PCGS the exact same raw coins to work with.

Midas

Across the whole board in almost EVERY US coin catagory???????? Is this ONE BIG coincidence that NGC hands out more 69 and 70 grades per total submissions than PCGS??

I don't think so!!

Since you bring up American Silver Eagles, let's look at recent submissions like the 2004 Proof ASE:

NGC accepted 10,770 submssions. They handed out 4,149 PR70UCAM grades (38.52%)
PCGS accepted 5,337 submission. They handed out 189 PR70DCAM grades (3.74%)

For the 2004 Proof ASE, NGC handed out over 10 times more 70 grades than PCGS.

99.23% of all submissions to NGC yielded a grade of PR69UCAM or higher. 60.71% were awarded the 69UCAM grade
98.26% of all submission to PCGS yielded a grade of PR69DCAM or higher. 94.72% were awarded the 69DCAM grade

Just another coincidence?? I call it a trend!

You really expect to see that across the entire spectrum of US Coins? You can't honestly suggest that those submitting specifically to NGC are ALL submitting better coins that those submitting to PCGS. It is like asking how in the world is SGS out of Ohio (Aboncom) is coming across all these MS70 and PR70 coins?? Well maybe, they have better collectors submitting coins to them too! Come on...do you really buy into that?

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GDJMSP

Now c'mon Midas, not every US coin. Remember you're only talking about moderns here. The fact that NGC grades 50,000 more coins in a month might also have bearing don't ya think ? Hmmm, come to think of it, that could also mean that more people trust NGC to grade their coins than they do PCGS. But of course that could be coincidence too.

Tell ya what, rather than playing with numbers which don't prove anything - let's play with coins instead. I mean if we're gonna play this game let's play it right. And let's forget about the modern limitation - let's play with all coins. Let's post some pics

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09S-V.D.B

Noooo!!! I'm still on dial-up.

I'm pretty sure this thread doesn't apply to anything except moderns, unless you can show me a 70 ihc or v-nickel.