Proofs w/o mint marks

bojous · 12-05-2005, 07:39 PM

Hey all. Here's a straight forward question. Shouldn't require any photos, either. How does a person determine if a coin is a proof minted w/o a mint mark(ex. 1971 Jeff. nickel)? Obviously, 1971 predates the U.S. Mint using mint marks on Philly minted nickels. So, how would one determine a proof w/o a mm versus a Philly minted coin?
Thanks.
PS And CladKIng, thx for the heads up on the '90 cent "mm-less" proofs

cladking · 12-05-2005, 07:51 PM

There are extremely PL BU's but I've seen only a couple which might be mistaken
for a proof and both would be very low on the quality scale for proofs. Generally
the PL's just won't have the square rims, basining, and high luster of proofs. Even
where they do, they'll very rarely be struck on a polished planchet. There are more
"burnished" PL's since '87, but it's not usually a big issue. I would recommend care
be taken if purchasing a '90 No-S cent and have heard of PL dimes being substituted
into '68 sets but these shouldn't have been very convincing.

Just Carl · 12-05-2005, 07:53 PM

Not sure what dates your referring to. If supposed to have an S for recent proofs and nothing there it would depend on if it was in the original Mint Package. Possibly there are always people out there that can do amazing things with coins such as removing the Mint Mark. Why? Just for fun. As to how to identify, just don't know.

**Speedy** · 12-05-2005, 10:14 PM

I agree with Cladking...I have seen less than 5 business strikes from the 80's to date that would get PL...so I think it would be easy to tell if it is a proof or not....a trained eye is needed--that is one thing I'm still working on that

Speedy

Troodon · 12-05-2005, 11:45 PM

If I recall, there were a few San Francisco minted proof dimes in the 70's with no mintmark. Very rare as I recall... the 1975 especially.

bojous · 12-07-2005, 01:12 AM

So, the gist of what y'all are saying is the only way to determine a '71 proof nickel, or a '90 proof cent, or a '75 proof dime (all w/o mm's) is by the innate quality of a proof coin vs a business strike, right? Even though these hypothetical proofs have been in circulation for 20-30 yrs? Guess I'm gonna need to upgrade my glasses, as well as all my magnifying stuff. AND study the hell out of some known proofs!
Thanks for answering this question...It's been kinda bugging me periodically for a while.

Richard01 · 12-07-2005, 01:48 AM

I know that proof nickels from 1958 - 1964 or so (maybe later) don't have mintmarks. I have several hundred of them... I think they are the only proofs without (though I'm not sure). And yep, the only hint is the quality... I can image a well circulated one could be very hard to identify as a proof.

cladking · 12-07-2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bojous

So, the gist of what y'all are saying is the only way to determine a '71 proof nickel, or a '90 proof cent, or a '75 proof dime (all w/o mm's) is by the innate quality of a proof coin vs a business strike, right? Even though these hypothetical proofs have been in circulation for 20-30 yrs? Guess I'm gonna need to upgrade my glasses, as well as all my magnifying stuff. AND study the hell out of some known proofs!
Thanks for answering this question...It's been kinda bugging me periodically for a while.

Not exactly.

Proof is a different method of manufacture it's not just a higher quality.

Basining of dies is polishing the face flat and smooth. Coins are struck
multiple times so the entire die is usually visible. Planchets are polished
so there is a high luster on the finished coin.

What complicates things is that these same processes sometimes ap-
pear on business strikes either intentionally or accidently. Sometimes
they don't appear on proofs accidently. There are cases where business
dies are inadvertantly prepared and used as proof dies and where retired
proof dies were used to coin business strikes.

There is normally a hard and fast line between proof and business strikes
but this line is sometimes blurred because of mint practices or errors.

**Speedy** · 12-07-2005, 09:20 AM

Quote:

quality of a proof coin vs a business strike, right?

Right....but most of these proofs haven't been in circulation...they aer in proof sets...so that won't be hard....and even if they are circulated it wouldn't be too hard....I tell you what....post photos here of one you think might be one and we wil help you.

Speedy

bojous · 12-08-2005, 03:55 AM

Thanks, Cladking...Nah, I don't have any suspect coins. I've just read about these isolated incidences from a variety of resourses, and the issue just piqued my curiousity.
However, I do have several double died nickels (particularly a '38 and a '69s) that are EF grade or better, that I'd like to have looked at IF you have a sec. Really just curious as to possible value/collectibility. Just need to work out the photo set up deal.
Thx

bojous · 12-08-2005, 04:03 AM

And Thx Speedy...
I don't have any suspect mm-less proofs. My question was strictly academic, as I've read about these isolated instances, and was merely curious.
I do have several doubled die Jeffersons that I would like to post pics of, to get your opinion on value/collectibility. Just need to play with the photography aspect to obtain useful images.
Thx for the info.

ericl · 12-08-2005, 05:56 PM

there is a 1983 (plain) proof dime and that's genuine date/type, as all philly dimes that year have a P. There's also a 1982 (plain) dime that got into circulation. Kind of an error, but there's about 20K of them that were made, being a key of the FDR series. The '83 (plain) is THE key of the series.

cladking · 12-08-2005, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericl

there is a 1983 (plain) proof dime and that's genuine date/type, as all philly dimes that year have a P. There's also a 1982 (plain) dime that got into circulation. Kind of an error, but there's about 20K of them that were made, being a key of the FDR series. The '83 (plain) is THE key of the series.

There was also a '75 No-S coin made. There are about 15 known.

bojous · 12-09-2005, 01:49 AM

Hey ericl...Yep, I realize there have been beaucoup incidences of various coin denominations throughout the years having been struck mmless proofs. My question specifically was directed at those coins that were struck as mmless proofs prior to the year when the Philadelphia mint began marking it's issue (ex. 1971 Jefferson).
The gist of my question was how would one distinguish a mmless proof that has been in circulation for 3-4 decades from a business strike of the same year, minted at Philly before the Philly mint began marking it's coins.
Admittedly, I'm pretty much a novice inre coin collecting. However, I assure you, if I come across ANY "silver" or nickel US coins minted post 1980 that lack a mintmark, I'm going to spend some time studying that bad boy fer sure!
Thanks for the info.One thing I have discovered since being snagged by the collecting thing...The more I learn, the more I realize how little I knew. Thanks again.
Boj

**jody526** · 12-09-2005, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bojous

My question specifically was directed at those coins that were struck as mmless proofs prior to the year when the Philadelphia mint began marking it's issue (ex. 1971 Jefferson).
The gist of my question was how would one distinguish a mmless proof that has been in circulation for 3-4 decades from a business strike of the same year, minted at Philly before the Philly mint began marking it's coins.

There were 1,655 1971 "No S" proof nickels minted.

On rare occasions you will hear of someone finding a proof coin in circulation.
This is usually the result of someone using a stolen collection for cash, or dealers putting impaired proofs into circulation.

I would have to think that the odds of there being any 1971 "No S" proof nickels in circulation are so astronomically low, that it isn't worth considering.

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